Self defense is allowed but good luck proving it
Zero tolerance leaves little room for self-defense
Self defense is a legal right that has been trampled by zero tolerance policies. In Henry County Schools there have been 764 hearings for fighting over the past several years. Only 29 students have ever been cleared. This number includes all pleas including self defense.
Preston Malcom, assistant superintendent for administrative services for Henry County schools, said that students can claim self-defense during disciplinary hearings, but said that it must be more than a “simple declaration.”
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“The burden is on the person making the claim,” Malcom said. “The burden is not on the school system.”
Guilty until proven innocent and less than 4% of students are able to get that proof. The odds are even worse in neighboring Clayton County where the administration has a perfect conviction record this year - 25 out of 25 hearings with not a single student cleared.
Clayton County Juvenile Court Judge Steve Teske said the law provides for self-defense, but self-defense in schools comes down to proving that indeed it was self-defense.
Teske said that legally, students “absolutely” are allowed to defend themselves in a fight.
“It is true, which is why I disagree with zero tolerance,” he said. “Zero tolerance promotes bullying and promotes violence. With zero tolerance there’s no reason to investigate whose fault it is.”
Henry County Contact Information:
Superintendent Dr. Jack Parish
Schoolboard Chairman Ray Hudalla
Schoolboard Vice Chairman Pam Nutt
Schoolboard Member Brian Preston
Schoolboard Member Charles Vickery
Schoolboard Member Erik Charles
Clayton County Contact Information:
Superintendent Dr. Barbara M. Pulliam
Schoolboard Chairman Ericka Davis
Schoolboard Vice Chairman Eddie White
Schoolboard Member LaToya Walker
Schoolboard Member Lois Baines-Hunter
Schoolboard Member Yolanda Everett
Schoolboard Member Rev. W. Rod Johnson
Schoolboard Member David Ashe
Schoolboard Member Allen Johnson
Schoolboard Member Connie Kitchens
Burden of proof on the student instead of on the school? Sounds very un-American to me. Sounds Communist or perhaps Fascist, which are really two members of the same family.
Once again — you guys haven’t been there — that is in the fight in the school trying to break it up. You usually can’t tell who started it, whether it was because of a threat — etc. With a ratio of 25 to 1 or more and the kids watching you until you turn away so they can hit someone or call them a name or threaten them you won’t see who starts it. The witnesses won’t tell you what happened (”What, rat out my friend?”). In the hallway (where most fights happen) the ratio is more like 100 to 1 and you are taking your life in your hands to intervene. I broke one up in the hallway with a friend who got hit by someone else who just thought he would take the time to hit on a teacher during the confusion. No one saw a kid hit a teacher! Yeah, I believe that!
The only time I took 2 kids to the dean’s office from a fight in my class (I broke up lots of them in the hallway), I said who had thrown the first punch, and the other guy was honest enough to tell me that actually he had….
So we throw them both out. Not because we don’t care who started it, but because we can’t determine who was at fault. If we didn’t do that there would be no consequences for fighting and there would be chaos and kids hitting each other and teachers.
Now….. what is self-defense? What do you have to do to restrict your response to self-defence? Lets see — Simon hits Fred first. Fred can:
A. Back away
B. Defend himself from further hits by blocking hits
C. Hit the attacker once to let him know he will respond
D. Hit the attacker once for every time he is hit
E. Beat the ever-living crap out of the kid or die trying
F. Pull out a gun and shoot him
OK, what is the answer? What is self defense? It appears to me that most of you would allow all 6! Well, to be fair, you would not allow F.
The answer is A & B, in case you are wondering. Once you are hitting to show him you will respond you are not defending, you are fighting. And how can you tell the difference between B & C? You can’t — at least not without witnesses who are willing to talk.
Now do you see why we punish both kids in a fight?
barry
You’re nothing if not dependable Barry. I think I’ll archive all your posts here - should I ever have children and be tempted to send them to school in the face of the daunting challenges of being a parent, I’ll unzip the archive, see what sheer stupidity I’d be subjecting my progeny to, bite the bullet and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to keep then the hell away from the likes of you.
Now do you see why we punish both kids in a fight?
Yes, yes I do. You have consistently described that you are not competent enough to determine guilt in a situation.
Teske defined self-defense as “that force that is reasonable to fend off an attacker.”
Unfortunately that is a subjective measure and these are not overly popular in administrative circles.
Unfortunately that is a subjective measure and these are not overly popular in administrative circles.
Anything that requires thought and intelligence is unpopular in administrative circles.
I might be willing to allow all options through E in the event of an unprovoked attack, barry — my reservation on the last being that I wouldn’t want the janitor to have to deal with the mess made by meting out the richly deserved F.
Now my experience is that generally fights are not a case of innocent victim and guity aggressors — they are often two guys (girls) looking to go at it. And gnerally there are enough witnesses to an unprovoked attack to tell who did what.
I went to a high school where the school district spent an inordinate amount of their yearly budget making the place a showplace…if the governor visited, that was the school he got to see. This meant that the measures they REALLY needed to take (drug sniffing dogs, metal detectors and armed security guards) simply did not happen, since that would detract from the school’s image. It was nearly impossible to be expelled from that school, since an expulsion for drugs, violence or cheating would look bad on their record. For the first expulsion level offense, you simply got a transfer to the other high school in the district (and you COULD be expelled there).
I personally have been in situations where the reasonable and appropriate response covers the entire spectrum, from A to F. I never carried anything more lethal than pepper spray (legal to carry at the school, with a signed parental consent form), but there were moments when I found myself wishing for something a bit more substantial. Like an M-16, maybe. I never went looking for trouble, and I was hardly a candidate for a shooting spree. I just had the bad luck to repeatedly wander into the wrong place at the wrong time. But I personally experienced attacks where any of those responses could be reasonable; A happened all the time, and was mostly ignored by the teachers…it was my preferred response, unless circumstances made it impossible (which was often the case).
What good does it do to back away from half a dozen guys who REALLY want to put you in the hospital, for no better reason than they’re pissed off and you’re handy? B would work for a while, until you get surrounded. C just makes them mad. D works, but you’re outnumbered 6 to 1. E is about the level of response that situation would warrant, accompanied by healthy doses of A and B. And if the gang was armed, as was often the case…well, F was not an option for most people not in a gang, but when you’re up against 6 guys with knives, it WOULD be the appropriate response level.
But going by Barry’s system, the first time I found myself in that situation, I’d have to chooce between the hospital/morgue, or being expelled for fighting. I know which one I’d choose, because I did choose on several occasions, and I’m still here to write about it.
And before you ask, why didn’t I just ask a teacher for help? Because the ONLY thing that would result is me getting a transfer to the other high school for fighting; Because they can’t transfer the gang, then they’d have to admit why, and they couldn’t do that. Anyone who got transferred like that was on the short list to be expelled if they had even a minor problem for the rest of their school career.
1. In most states self defense is an affirmative defense and the person claiming it IS responsible for proving it (reasonable doubt standard). Although it sounds like these schools are looking for “absolute certainty” instead of reasonable doubt.
2. Regarding Barry’s points about what is self defense, none of those are right but it’s a mix of C, D, and E. Self defense is reasonable force to protect yourself from an aggressor. You don’t become the aggressor yourself just by throwing a punch, but you do if you continue fighting once the other person has stopped (for instance, continuing to hit a person after you’ve knocked them down).
Unfortunately when kids fight it IS going to be hard to tell whether one kid started it and the other was defending himself or whether it was mutual. If the choices are punish both or punish neither then punishing both is probably the lesser evil.
The real problem I see here is that this school system has held 116 disciplinary hearings for fighting/physical abuse in just 7 months (over 16 a month!) — which says to me they’ve got a serious problem with violence in their schoools.
The “you can’t tell which kid started it” argument is kind of dumb most of the time. Unless the staff is incredibly obtuse, they should know which kids are the bullies. If a known bully gets into a fight with a kid whose disciplinary record is clean, how stupid do you have to be not to figure out who most probably was the instigator?
stupid. Barry would you just sit there and take an asswhoopin. I like floridas new law. it makes sense. if you fear for your life you no longer have to try to get away, you can use deadly force. that makes sense. take power away from the criminals and give it back to law abiding citizens
Self defense is what you must reasonably do to protect yourself. That can include incapacitating an attacker who will not relent - when you knock someone down, for it to end there, you need to be reasonably sure that, when you turn and walk away, they won’t get up and blindside you.
My son was just in a fight at school. Because he hasn’t been acting nicely lately, he knew the PROM was on the line for any bad behavior. A kid didn’t like the way he looked, and tackled my son. My son did nothing. Blocked a few punches, got some at the same time. The kid got suspended from school, but I am still upset that my son had to just sit there and take it so he wouldn’t get into trouble. We’re supposed to be able to defend ourselves…well not anymore. Any help would be appreciated.
My daughter, too, was just suspended from school yesterday. She was walking down the hallway with a backpack on her back, purse in hand and was blindsighted by another student.
She took three punches, one of which blacked an eye, the other bloodied her nose, and without really being able to tell who even was hitting her… swung back. I went to the school to pick her up and was clearly told by the administration there was no question that” it was self-defense……”" but that’s school policy. When I asked about adequate protection / supervision in the hallways…. yes there was someone there, however “she was an elderly woman, who was unable to do anything about it”….. . I recorded this conversation the the “acting” administrator” at the time. For some unknown reason, both principal and vice-principal needed to be away at the same time……. Also told she actually receives 3 1/2 days because the incident occured after lunch…. had it “occured before lunch, that day would have been included the three days”…. I am waiting for administration to get back from there “meeting” on Friday…. Any one have any suggestions in the meantime.